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Ohio Basketball

Topic: Line Up Shake Up

Topic: Line Up Shake Up

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Speaker of Truth
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Line Up Shake Up

Posted: 1/13/2016 10:43:39 AM

I think one of the big issues is that we have Tony playing tons of 5. This is obviously going to get him in Foul trouble early. I think we may want to consider starting Wadly and moving treg to the bench?

I'd be curious to get some thought from Borna and other guys who know basketball more than me. Especially if Wadly can make some 10 foot jump shots when Tony gets closed on.

bornacatfan
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RE: Line Up Shake Up

Posted: 1/13/2016 11:53:58 AM

the123kid wrote:

I like Wad better as he gets mmore game time. He is showing to be a shot blocker and able defender. Can't hit FT's consistently but I am happy that he is rounding into a player.

I am not sure why it is Obvious that playing the 5 will get him in foul trouble. Technique? Skills? Getting hung out in the middle because the high screen and roll technique by the guard always leaves him exposed in a mismatch? Why would moving him to the 4 to play MAC ball with a smaller faster more mobile 4 make him LESS foul prone? Because his feet are so fast he would cut off the drive?

On Offense the scheme to get the bigs an inside out presence changes when you go 2 bigs. Not saying we don't change anywya when Wadley is in there, just limits a part of our game. Looks like Tony in this scheme is able to go to the 5 spot and be present inside then come off setting the screen to pop out or roll. If you have Wad setting the same screen where is the 4 spot then? I think there are many cases where a high and low post presence works (more in JG's scheme with Devo and KVK than present scheme) but it would mean changing up a bit of how we are constructed and playing. I don't think anyone is thinking that Tony is a true stretch 4 with ability to put the ball on the deck and drive or stop and pop on Offense or guard a stretch 4 on defense

never argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

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boydhallbobcat
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RE: Line Up Shake Up

Posted: 1/13/2016 1:12:32 PM

I think starting Wadly would be a mistake. Defensively he has spurts of solid play, but he brings very little to the offensive end of the floor. I think the game moves too quickly for him sometimes. PERHAPS that would get better with more playing time, but it just doesn't seem like he's a legit threat at the division 1 level. I like that he plays hard, but it's almost like he hasn't grown into his body yet. His movements are awkward.

Dexcat
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RE: Line Up Shake Up

Posted: 1/13/2016 1:35:58 PM

He blocks shots, sometimes, but is often caught leaving his man or in bad position to get the rebound. I think the starting line up is fine, however, the over commit to help defense seems to leave wide open shots.

Casper71
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RE: Line Up Shake Up

Posted: 1/14/2016 9:42:02 AM

My feeling is we have 3 big slow guys in the 3-4-5 positions. Only treg defends at an average level because he hustles. The other two are...just slow and bad. I don't think anything (other than maybe some zone) will hide their deficiencies. This is where I think a coach needs to adjust to his players...just my humble opinion!

OU_Country
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RE: Line Up Shake Up

Posted: 1/14/2016 10:12:55 AM

Casper71 wrote:

And why I sometimes ask questions about considering using a zone more.

Lande71
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RE: Line Up Shake Up

Posted: 1/14/2016 10:28:48 AM

If you want to play a sound (Really good) zone defense it will have sound man to man principles. If they cannot move well enough in the man defense they will probably not move well enough in the zone. The one thing it may do is help clog the middle, but we will probably give up more 3's in the process and we give up a lot of them now that hurt us.

Casper71
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RE: Line Up Shake Up

Posted: 1/14/2016 4:27:00 PM

Hold the phone...the 71s are gonna disagree here. I understand the thing about defensive principles BUT, you ask anyone who has played the game and I think they will tell you, if your team is not as athletic or not a good man to man defending team, you MAY be more successful in a zone. I realize there are trade offs. And, I also think most would say a zone is "easier" to play as opposed to man to man with all the switching, etc. Heck, I'd say given how we play man to man a switch to some zone couldn't be any worse!

OhioCatFan
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RE: Line Up Shake Up

Posted: 1/14/2016 4:57:07 PM

This reminds me of some of the football threads where we all get together and tell Frank what he needs to do to adjust his offense and his defense to improve our chances of victory. I agree it's good sport and can make for good entertainment, but please realize that Saul probably has some sense of our deficiencies and probably will rely on advice from the likes of Bo Ryan, who saw in person our diabolical performance against NIU, before he confers with the like of me and you. Just a thought. Not meaning to stop the discussion, but just pointing out a truth that sometimes gets lost in these discussions.

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Lande71
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RE: Line Up Shake Up

Posted: 1/14/2016 6:13:01 PM

Casper71 wrote:

Casper, I have played and coached the game. Our defensive philosophy was to play all man at the beginning of the season to teach man principles and get that ingrained into the players heads. Mid season we would begin throwing zone defenses into the mix teaching kids how to properly play the zones using those man principles. It appears you would like to sit back in a zone and not move much because you are not athletic and quick. See where that will get you with the shooters and scorers in today's game from the perimeter. If you can spread out the zone and make it "big" it can cause problems on the perimeter. However, by doing so, you open the zone up to penetration which has caused us major problems. Zones can easily become a "lazy" mans defense. We happen to be lazy, it appears, in our man.

bornacatfan
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RE: Line Up Shake Up

Posted: 1/14/2016 6:38:48 PM

Zones don't work if players don't first understand man principles. Zones don't cover slow feet and players that don't understand the communication needed in playing man are NOT going to do well in zone where shared responsibilities and talk are key.

BillyTheCat
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RE: Line Up Shake Up

Posted: 1/14/2016 6:46:14 PM

Lande71 wrote:

Casper71 wrote:

+1, if you can't play Man well, you won't play a good zone. Nothing drives me crazy than seeing youth coaches playing zones.

BillyTheCat
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RE: Line Up Shake Up

Posted: 1/14/2016 6:46:44 PM

bornacatfan wrote:

GraffZ06
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RE: Line Up Shake Up

Posted: 1/14/2016 9:43:42 PM

I think part of the problem is we CAN'T play Wadly and Tone together much, if at all, and it's all due to Campbell's propensity to be in foul trouble.

They are the only two guys we have to play the 5 spot and as soon as Tone gets in foul trouble it means Wadly has to be in the game. If we play Mompremier together with Tone AND when Tone is sitting on the bench then when does Wadly get to rest? Also much less chance of both Wadly and Campbell both being in foul trouble when only one is on the floor at a time.

Basically Wadly has to be the Campbell back-up plan at all times because more times than not we're going to have to utilize it.

Otherwise we're going to see lineups with Doug Taylor getting a bunch more minutes or Treg Setty at the 5.

If Campbell wasn't a walking personal foul then maybe we could see this lineup for short spurts, but as it is, it's just too risky IMO.

cbus cat fan
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RE: Line Up Shake Up

Posted: 1/15/2016 9:09:31 AM

I see many potential line up changes through the year. It is a rather young, raw team with lots of potential. The one thing that threw me for a loop during my first year of high school coaching was the psychological aspect of team play. As a coach you may know your x's and o's inside and out, but the way a team plays together is something totally different. I suspect Coach Phillips is ironing out all the wrinkles with what combination works best.

Casper71
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RE: Line Up Shake Up

Posted: 1/15/2016 9:31:54 AM

Wow, first I don't think I ever said anything about liking to play lazy defense and sitting back in a zone because it is easy. What I think I was trying to say was zone defenses can cover for SOME deficiencies if played properly. For example, I don't think you see as many "blow bys" from the top of the key all the way to the rim in a zone as you do in (our) man to man. I understand defensive principles, etc but a bit of zone can't be any worse than what we do now. It's like doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome.

As I have said previously and I think most agree, defense is much more an attitude (mental and physical), a discipline, a desire to play it and put some effort into that part of the game. I just don't see many of our players with that work man like attitude on the defensive side of the game.

GoCats105
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RE: Line Up Shake Up

Posted: 1/15/2016 9:44:08 AM

I just want to see some changes in the D throughout the game. Mix a little man-to-man, a 2-3, and some 3/4 court pressure. Keep the offense guessing.

I would love to see a lineup of Treg, Wadley, Jordy, Jaaron and KK run a 1-3-1 zone. Put Treg at the top for his length and hustle to cause havoc. Put Jordy and Jaaron on the wings to run out to the shooters. Put Wadley in the middle to clog up the lane. And let KK guard baseline to baseline, which hopefully wouldn't be that much of an issue.

Lande71
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RE: Line Up Shake Up

Posted: 1/15/2016 10:12:22 AM

Casper71 wrote:

Casper, Did I say that you were advocating for a lazy defense? Re-read my post. I said a zone can have the tendency to be a lazy defense. Have you ever heard of teams that play hard on offense and come back to play defense to rest? I also stated that you probably can eliminate some of the penetration (blow boys), but in doing so open up the 3 more. Face it, offenses try to exploit the weakness of any defense. I'm not saying Saul should never play zone. I'm simply saying it will probably not be a cure to our defensive woes. My philosophy tends to be more like the above post. I like to change defenses to try and keep the opponent off guard, trying to figure out how to attack what defense we are in.

Casper71
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RE: Line Up Shake Up

Posted: 1/15/2016 1:25:47 PM

I do agree...changing things up some and at least trying something different cannot end up with worse results than two of the last three games defensively. I would not want to play zone always and forever:)

BillyTheCat
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RE: Line Up Shake Up (NT)

Posted: 1/15/2016 3:38:02 PM

Last Edited: 1/15/2016 3:42:48 PM by BillyTheCat

bobcatsquared
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RE: Line Up Shake Up

Posted: 1/15/2016 9:57:25 PM

One thing that I don't believe has been discussed here is a coach's philosophy in terms of what to do when a player gets his second foul in the first half. Looks to me that Saul believes that a player is done for the first half when he picks up his second foul. Because of this belief, Ohio had Campbell and Dartis (perhaps KK) on the bench for most of the first half as Ohio lost most of its 14-point lead as well as most of its momentum. Other coaches, on the other hand, are more likely to let a player still get some first-half minutes with 2 fouls.

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